SUV Guilt
This week I'm test-driving a 2006 Ford Expedition King Ranch Edition for About.com's new About SUVs site. (In the photo you'll see Kojo, our photo session model, checking out the King Ranch's interior.) It's been a few months since I've driven a full-size SUV like the Expedition, and I have to admit to feeling a bit self-conscious. Despite using just about every fuel saving trick I know, including driving a sedate five over the speed limit, I still can't get this baby to go further than 15 miles on a gallon of gas.
Now, as I've said before, I don't hate SUVs. That said, I don't love them, either. They certainly have their place -- but here we are using this giant car for the same things we employ our old Honda Accord wagon. With more crap in the cargo bay, the A/C blasting and my lead-footed wife at the wheel, the Accord rarely dips below 24 MPG. And the ironic thing is that for all the space, the Expedition's back seat isn't any more comfortable than the Accord's.
Now, I don't mean to rag on the Expedition. Frankly, I think it's one of the safest full-size SUVs on the road, thanks to its independent rear suspension and (optional) Roll Stability Control system, both of which make it much easier to keep the Expedition under control in an emergency situation. (For more on why I think these items are so important, read my 2007 Ford Explorer Sport Trac test drive.) Still, one has to ask -- and let's set aside people who need to tow heavy trailers or traverse uneven ground, and talk about those who simply use these vehicles as giant station wagons -- is this much car really necessary? Let's hear your comments. -- Aaron Gold
Comments
All good points. I too am no SUV hater. In fact I see their “off-road” allure even if we never go off road. It’s like having a car that can top out at 175 mph. You’ll never get there but atleast you know you could. At the same time, I’m a car guy. If I buy a car that gets 15 mpg I want something for that. What I want is dynamics, acceleration, farfergnugen perhaps. I don’t think an SUV gives you that with few possible exceptions.
At the same time, I find myself in a quandry. We have a third child coming and both my wife and I strongly dislike minivans. For now were planning on squeezing three car seats into our Saab 9-5 but soon, that lease will expire and then what? I’ve spent the last month or so researching the “rear hiproom” stats on everything from a V70R and yes even an e350 wagon. The R350 and XC90 SUV’s look better and better. Even the Expedition has it’s place here.
What do you think?
First off, try giving minivans a try. They really are the most sensible solution for growing families. You might find that you like it a lot more than you’d think - and they come in many styles, too.
Our family recently picked up a Mazda 5 and are very happy so far. It’s a mostly successful blend of minivan and small car, with the best features of both while not looking like a minivan, if styling is your hang-up. (And let’s face it - styling is the hang-up for most every minivan-hater.) The three rows of seats mean plenty of room for three car seats, plus another adult if need be. Plus, the price is relatively low - you get a lot for your money.
If you just can’t stand minivans and need more room than the Mazda 5 can provide… well, you’re probably stuck with an SUV, so be prepared to spend a lot more money and get a lot worse mileage - and less real usable space. Also dirty looks from the SUV haters (which may just outnumber the minivan haters before long!)
One other option are the “minivans with regular doors marketed as SUVs” like the Subaru Tribeca or Chrysler Pacifica.
SUV Hating! What bunk and spin! Speculators raise the price of a gallon of fuel on any whim they can come up with and we are all supposed to jump into tiny cars and feel good about it. How are families with three or more children supposed to get anywhere? If a child includes a friend or the Grandparents want to come along with the family dog, where do you put them? Where do you put the luggage? How do you attach all of the required car seats? Why do you think Suburbans sell so well? Price? Economy? Load capacity? SUV drivers are not evil. They may have reasons, other than environmental irresponsibility, to have to drive that sized vehicle. Gasoline is a commodity and they have the right to use it in quantities they need. Who has the right to decide what the correct amount of fuel usage should be for what length of trip? Why not change the vehicle mpg calculations to include numbers of individuals carried or the function it is used for? If I can carry six people and get 15 mpg and your vehicle carries one and gets 25 mpg, who is wasting fuel more?
SUVs are just a lot of overcapacity and waiste. People need to grow up and not be so image-conscious, which is what really fuels SUV sales. If you can’t get over the mini-van, I just drove a Ford Freestyle and can tell you it’s very nice package, getting much better mileage than an SUV. Definitely well thought out as a family hauler.
G Kowalski: Your point would have some meaning if minivans didn’t offer more space (and more comfortable, practical, and usable space) than nearly all SUVs.
Don’t believe me? Compare the specs. Since the Expedition was brought up by Aaron, we’ll use that - and SUVs don’t get much bigger. It has 20.7 sq ft of cargo volume behind the third row. Compare that to, say, a Chrysler Town & Country. That has 26.4 sq ft behind the third row! Or fold down all the seats - the Expedition has 110.5 sq ft, the Chrysler has 165.5. That’s a lot more “dog room” for ya. As for mileage, you’ll get 14/19 mpg in the Expedition and 18/25 in the Town & Country. You’ll pay several more thousand upfront for the Expedition, too. You also don’t get the extremely practical sliding doors on the Expedition.
So, tell me again why SUVs are so great?
SUVs primary sell because they look “brawny” while minivans look “sissy”. That they’re smaller inside, get terrible mileage, and are very dangerous to other vehicles in a crash is just a side effect.
Ya drive around my neighborhood and it is packed with SUVs. The most off-roading they do is jumping the curb to park at a soccer game. Folks say they need them for the snow, but we only have a day or so when that would be justified, the streets are cleaned up almost immediately after most snows.
Front wheel drive could handle anything around here. The only justification for SUVs is towing a boat or other large object (jet skis can be pulled by the mini-van).
I don’t own a SUV, I have rear wheel drive sports cars and a truck (to pull the boat).
G Kowalski — I largely agree with Jeff. As an automotive journalist, I drive around in a different car every week, often with three kids (my two and my niece). And the fact is that most SUV’s *don’t* have that much more practical space than most cars. This week’s Expedition is a great example: The second row has two “captain’s chairs”. If you want to carry a significant amount of cargo, you have to fold the third row seats, making this a 16 MPG four-seater. And the second-row seats have short cusions and are less comfortable than most sedans.
If you drive an SUV, you might not realize just how far 25 MPG will get you. In our case, 25 MPG is the consumption of our Honda wagon, which seats two adults and three kids in relative comfort. Most mid-size sedans I test consume fuel at about the same rate.
If one seat is all you need, my two-seat CRX was getting around 36 MPG last time I checked.
Aaron — Cars Guide
I would be embarrassed to be seen in an SUV. And anyone who’s not dragging around kids, a dog and granny should be ashamed to be driving alone or with one companion in an SUV.
I also think their behemoth size puts drivers of small and normal size vehicles at great risk when there is an accident.
SUVs were a bad idea, the manufacturers pandered to yuppies and now those buyers are stuck with their Stupid Very Undesirable machines.
Ok… the SUV bashing has gone far enough… I will never again read another one of your self-righteous reviews.
I drive a traditional American mid-range 4-door sedan and have considered SUVs to be the absolute bain of this country ever since the SUV fad hit (and it was a fad!). Finally, most of the rest of Americans have caught on to their waste and impracticality too, thank God. In the meantime, GM’s (and Ford’s) concentration of design and manufacturing resources and marketing efforts to produce and sell these useless behemoths, to the exclusion of any meaningful work toward designing better, more efficient cars, has brought these two American industrial icons to the verge of bankruptcy, and it serves tham right. Perhaps only the nascient alliance with Renault and Nissan - foreign companies with much more enlightened long-term goals - may save GM. I hope so - I used to be a real fan of GM’s cars.
Rich
Ok now, not everyone who drives a SUV doesn’t use it. I own 3 SUV’s my wife drives a ford explorer. I drive a H1 and I have a second explorer, I have lifted and use as a off road vehicle for fun when I am not on my boat. We take our 5 kids ages 6-15 camping every weekend while weather permits and most of the time we take the boat with us because we camp on lake Shelbyville Illinois. Now we need both SUV’s to get the tow behind camper and boat to the lake. My oldest daughter turns 16 in two weeks I have already bought her the car she is getting it is a 74 jeep CJ. We (me and her rebuilt it from a Junker) and it get worse gas mileage than my off road explorer. But that is our right. Last time I checked this country was a republic. As a retired marine I have earned the right with my sweat and blood to own and drive what I want. I love my H1 the best part is during the winter when I see people in their Prius’s stuck in the snow and I give the a little push out. As for mini van’s that was what my wife owned up until I retired she hated it and I refused to drive it ever. So she got my explorer and I bought the biggest gas guzzler on the market, but guess what I a running a diesel H1 alpha I run bio-diesel and have a bank performance kit that help me get 25-30 MPG in my huge SUV, and I can still run right over a small house with out even knowing it. My family loves our SUVs and will never give them up and you can’t make us.
I bought an SUV just because that is what I wanted. My wife and I do not have children but I liked the Toyota Sequoia and bought it. I have never used the four wheel drive and probably never will, but I wanted it and got it. This is America, if you like buy it, if you don’t like it get something else. I don’t care if it does not get good gas mileage, if I was too concerned about that I would have got a small car.
Okay, I’ve been out of town for a day and this SUV thing has gotten out of hand…nice job of stirring the pot Mr. Gold!
Jean: do not give up on us. We reviewers do not always agree with Aaron (on more than just SUVs and minivans). We own a minivan in our household because the spouse uses it for his photo gear, plus it does get good gas mileage, but I am with Chad that we have our freedom to chose what we wish. I was driving the new Suburban a few days ago, and couldn’t believe the dirty stares I was getting from people. Kind of sad. I think we should be able to drive what we want, but we need to work on how the vehicles are powered. The number one goal is to lessen the dependence on foreign oil. Personally, I don’t care if we use corn, water, electricity, or chocolate (my personal favorite) to get us moving, but something has to do it so we can take the entire middle east and push it off into the “I don’t care what happens over there” file. Some are still touting diesels, but that’s still needing the oil. I think GM is on the right track with E85, and electrics stil may work once the techology occurs (it will soon, trust us). Bottom line: I can drive any vehicle and get the ultimate fuel economy, be it SUV, minivan, Corvette, or pickup. It’s all about HOW you drive, not WHAT you drive. Cut down your speed 5 mph, put on an air filter, keep the tires full with correct pressure, no jack rabbit starts…anyone can do it; it’s not rocket science (well, not yet, anyway). Besides, I’m still waiting for my flying car!
Today is my last day with the Expedition. I can’t decide if it’s just my perception, or if I really am getting cut off, tailgated, etc. more than usual in this vehicle. Tomorrow I swap it for a Ford Focus, so we’ll see if I get treated noticeably better on the ride home…
Anyway, I really don’t hate SUVs just because they are SUVs. There are actually several SUVs (and crossovers, or CUVs) that I really like. And I know there are people who buy SUVs because they actually need the heavy towing capacity, or off-road ability, or whatever. But for those who don’t need them, it just doesn’t make much sense. Take the Expedition and my family of four (with frequent temporary expansion to five). I drove that baby gently and averaged 15.3 MPG in mixed driving. Sure, we have every right to buy one — but the Mazda 5 that Jeff mentioned will do just as much on about half as much fuel. Not to mention the fact that the 5 is much more nimble and makes it easier to avoid an accident. Let’s set aside the issue of using one’s fair share. With gas well over $3/gallon, why would someone like me, who doesn’t tow, who doesn’t go off-road, want to volontarily nearly double the amount of money I spend on fuel and potentially endanger my family… just because I can?
Besides — we all know that supply and demand are a major factor behind fuel prices. The way I see it, by driving cars and demanding less, I’m helping drive down the costs for owners of gas-guzzling SUVs!
— Aaron
I love all the “this is america, we should drive what we want” comments. You are right, but freedom only works if people do not always make choices based selfish desire. If your decisions have a direct negative effect on those around you then your neighbors friends and peers have the right to try and influence your decision. We ban certain pesticides, discourage littering, wasting water, energy saving home products, recycling etc… Why should we not try to encourage people to drive what they need not want they want. If you look at the effect they have on society we should discourage their use by any mains necesary. You should feel guitly for wasting a precious resources, and producing significantly more emmissions than a smaller car, and putting other at risk of greater injury by speeding in a vehicle that takes significantly more distance to stop than that honda civic they are tailgating. They are harder on our roads and infrastructure. They use more steel and rubber than smaller cars. They use more oil, more coolant, more everything. They only good thing about an SUV is that it is the only thing the US auto industry sells with any level of success competing with the foreign markets. Yes you have the right to choose what ever car you want, but I have the right to think that I am a better citizen than you because I cansidered how my decisions will impact others and the world around me. My solution. Tax vehicles by weight and engine discplacement give corporate discounts to people who need industrial vehicles for work. Construction, Yard service, etc… If you have to have an H3 with 24 in chrome rims, or a toyota land crusier with the amazon adventure accessory package, or a chevy suburban with the DVD player for the kids, the ford F250 with a 10 inch lift and some loud mickey thomson mud tires, or a 300 plus horse power porsche cayanne go ahead and buy them. But understand that I look at you as a persone that does not care about anyone other than themselves. I can’t help it. It is just what you look like.
I love how people who drive huge SUV’s act as if the world expects them to trade them in for a Prius or an Insight. No one is saying you need to go from a huge hog to a motor scooter. I think the point is simply that you can make better choices that won’t impact your abilty to haul your five kids and your grandmother around.
To the guy who said he gave his blood and sweat for America- good for you. And I’m glad you didn’t lose your life in service. But I intend to do what I can, in at least a small way, to lessen our country’s dependence on foreign oil so that we don’t send our youth to dubious foreign missions that ultimately do relate to “energy security”. To me, real patriots make choices that benefit society, and reducing energy dependency is one way to do that. I will never argue you should be forced to drive something smaller than you choose, but I do believe people should pay- based on displacement and road taxes- for the right to waste resources. Ultimately this is just about doing the right thing, with the additional benefit that once you really try driving something other than a Ford Expedition (literally the worst, least responsive thing I’ve ever driven) you’ll rediscover how fun it is to drive something with real road manners and responsiveness.
I have had an SUV for a couple of years which I like ok but I would never get another one. I actually care about the fact that thousands of americans are dying every year in Iraq. I also just got a Honda Civic which I love driving and even if I didn’t I could put up with a little inconvenience considering what our troops are sacrificing.
As far as being better people or better Americans than anyone else can be debated on a person-by-person basis. The bottom line is: if people don’t buy vehicles, the manufacturers stop making them. it’s as simple as that. And I’m not going to get into a discussion about how many people the automotive industry keeps employed in America. As far as speeding and accidents, it has nothing to do with the size of the vehicle, but rather the ability of the driver to control the car, be it an SUV or a Honda Civic.
As far as charging people based on displacement and road taxes, the weathly will play whatever it costs because they can. There’s already a gas-guzzler and luxury tax that hasn’t deterred anyone who wants a high-priced exotic from getting one. And speaking of exotics, how come no one’s ragging on the sports cars that make 10 mpg?
There’s a bigger picture to the “10-inch lift kit” and other accessories. It’s called the aftermarket industry, which accounts for $31 BILLION dollars in sales each year. Think about how many people that segment of the automotive industry employs.
It’s easy to bitch about SUVs, but there’s a much bigger picture here, as is with any complicated concern facing America today.
If we are to listen to the SUV nay-sayers, then folks who drive them are selfish, wasteful, arrogant and egotistical. Maybe these nay-sayers simply have no tolerance for self-expression, personal choice and the persuit of life, liberty and happiness. It appears to me they wish to be something akin to freedom police based on their value system. I whole-heartedly reject the notion that I am evil simply by driving an SUV. Get a grip and while you’re at it, a life! These folks are pompous, self-righteous and misguided. If it’s oil consumption they worry about, let’s truly rid ourselves of the mid-east bunch and tap our own resources right here in our own backyard. It is America and everyone has the right to their values, beliefs and opinions, but as a free society we must refrain from forcing trivial personal beliefs upon others. I will respect their right to drive the vehicle of their choice. Is it too much to ask for the same in return?
I have two SUV’s and a 05 Sienna. I enjoy driving my suburban and as long as I can afford the gas I will continue to drive it. I get a steady 11mpg, unless I tow our trailer at 65, then I get 7. If people want to look stupid in a prius go for it. I’ll go for a big rig any day. The enviro-wacko’s can go ahead and save the fuel, that way I can use it.
BJ: The accident one is a very real issue, as SUVs do not play well in accidents with cars. The extreme weight and the height mean that they often go right over the car’s bumper. Also, the truck-based SUVs nearly all run on a ladder frame, which is unlikely to deform in an accident and cause significant damage to any other vehicle or the people inside. I recently read an article in a physics magazine about this topic, which included (going from memory here), “it’s clear than SUVs and cars cannot continue to co-exist.”
This is just the accident itself. In terms of avoiding an accident - the high center of gravity and extreme weight (especially the unsprung weight like the 20″+ wheels and enormous tires popular today) mean that they can’t stop or turn like a car. There’s also this little tendency to roll over far easier than your average car.
The problem is people buying these large truck-based vehicles as car replacements and assuming that they can drive them like a car. Which they can’t.
As for the dirty stares when you drive a Surburban or other huge vehicle - don’t forget that you make it very difficult for the people near you to see around or past your vehicle, which can be very annoying sometimes… or how about the way they barely fit in parking spaces?
David: the choice is more a matter of “trivial personal beliefs”. I do believe that people should be able to drive whatever they want (as long as it passes the usual battery of safety tests), but the wonderful thing about America is - that we don’t HAVE to respect your choice. Joe Consumer is free to buy the biggest, most obnoxious passenger vehicle money can be - and we’re free to be disgusted by it.
Fortunately, big SUVs are now going the way of the monster truck. A few diehards will stick to them, while most people will migrate back to cars, minivans, and car-based crossovers.
“…the wonderful thing about America is - that we don’t HAVE to respect your choice. Joe Consumer is free to buy the biggest, most obnoxious passenger vehicle money can be - and we’re free to be disgusted by it.”
Good point.
One thing I just don’t get — why would anyone want to pay twice as much in gasoline than they have to? Look at our site’s most popular articles — most days Top Ten Fuel Efficient Cars is our most popular article. Over on the Trucks site, SUVs that get good gas mileage is number one. Surely not everyone is looking to consume as much fuel as possible…
By the way, do you know what country provides the largest proportion of our oil imports? It’s not any place in the middle east… it’s Canada. Number two is Mexico. Saudi Arabia is number 3, and Venezuela is number four. Check out official oil import statistics here.
Aaron
so we didn’t send our troops to Iraq to die for oil?
J Kyle:
Most SUVs (and all Ford SUVs) have been using “Blocker beams” in front bumpers to prevent the “ride up” over smaller cars. The beam is positioned low in the bumper and is designed to go nose to nose with sedans. It actually works (I’ve seen a demo) to keep the SUV and the sedan on the same level in a frontal impact.
J Kyle & Aaron: I didn’t purchase my SUV for it’s gas milage nor how safe it would be for someone else in an accident. I bought it simply because I wanted it. I agree that one can’t drive an SUV like a car, nor should one try. That would fall under the heading of “common sense”, wouldn’t it? The best way to be safe in an accident is to avoid it all together, which would speak more to driving practices rather than vehicle choice. My point is this; why discriminate against the person who choses to own and drive an SUV for whatever their reasoning?
David — I agree that the best way to be safe in an accident is to avoid it in the first place. That’s another safety problem with big SUVs: They simply cannot avoid accidents as well as cars. It’s not a matter of driver skill; it’s a matter of physics. If, out of the corner of your eye, you suddenly see a drunk driver careening towards the intersection you’re about to cross and you jam on the brakes, a Fusion will stop faster than an Expedition.
I don’t think it’s a matter of discrimination. There is an argument that, as a car driver, big SUVs pose more of a danger to my family and me. And if you believe that oil supplies are limited, then a vehicle that gets 15 MPG is affecting our supply much faster than my family car at 25 MPG.
BJ: “Blocker beam” or no (a friend used to call it a “Civic catcher”), don’t forget the old saying: Whether the pitcher hits the stone or the stone hits the pitcher, it’s not going to be good for the pitcher.
More fuel for the fire. Thoughts?
If you want to talk physics, let’s discuss that drunk driver careening toward you. I’d rather be sitting in a Suburban when he hits me than a Fusion. Sorry, but mass wins every time.
Plus if a drunk driver is coming toward you, the correct driver input is not to “jam on the brakes.” It is to have the capability to assess the situation instantly and avoid the driver by evasive maneuver or turning the vehicle sideways so you are not hit head on. And that only comes through driver training at schools and with experience in accident avoidance. Or perhaps improving the drunk driving laws so he isn’t out there on the road in the first place. And a Fusion stopping faster than an Expedition is predicated on speed and stopping distance, as well as braking ability and driver reaction. It’s not as cut and dried as you make it out to be.
I’m with BJ on the “mass wins every time” thing. It is one of the reasons I bought my wife the Expy. We both practice safe and defensive driving techniques. There are plenty of knot heads out there and if they happen upon my wife and children then I want mine coming out on top. Additionally, my vehicle only poses a danger to those that come into contact with it. If we follow that argument, then we should rid ourselves of everything larger than the Fusion; such as eighteen wheelers.
I also don’t follow the argument that oil supplies are so limited such as to create a wide spread panic. We aren’t allowed to access all there is. Moreover, in this free market economy there will be opportunities to develope new ways to fuel automobiles as the need arises.
BJ: I should have added “All else being equal”. I’m actually thinking of a specific incident that happened to me, when stopping the car was the best alternative. (As it happens, I had plenty of room in front of me.) The fact is that all else being equal, the Fusion will be able to stop faster or swerve more accurately every time. However skilled or unskilled the driver is, the Fusion will always be more responsive.
David: Here’s the problem: Let’s say (God forbid) the Expedition is involved in a single-vehicle crash into something unyielding, like a tree. A stiffer vehicle may actually do more to harm its occupants than a smaller “softer” vehicle. And then there’s the rollover issue. Now, I happen to know that it’s harder to roll a vehicle over than most people think. An SUV generally will not roll from cornering too fast (though I think the perception that it will may lead to more panic braking and loss of control). Ford’s electronic Roll Stability Control adds a further margin of safety. But it is easier to “trip” or roll as a result of a collision, something RSC can’t help. As far as I know, the Expedition’s GVWR (7100 lbs or more) means it does not have to pass the 35-year-old federal roof crush test (which itself offers questionable protection), and the roof pillars have to hold up a lot more weight than those of a car. The idea that one is doing more to protect one’s family by buying the biggest SUV possible is, I believe, a fallacy.
As for new fuels: History does not bear that out. Plenty of perfectly good alternative fuel sources have been killed off or ignored due mostly to bad PR. No energy source without a clear profit path for the existing oil companies is likely to survive in today’s market.
To all: your comments are quite interesting in this battle between fuel efficiency and personal choices. Wheather SUV of sedan. If you’ve ever been outside of the US, the craze for larger cars do not exist. Europe has one of the greatest mass transit systems available (and used by the majority of city dwellers) Wherever the income does not afford a vehicle, pedal power is the way to get around.
Only in America can you see so many choices of cars and trucks available to who can afford them. And then there are those that make cars for those select people (Bugati Veyron, Ferrari Enzo…)who buy can buy them with “spare money” that coin the phrase “if you need to ask you can’t afford it”.
In this country we hail the right to do what we want as we see fit. We spend Billions each year to be entertained by specially modified cars that either run a 1/4 mile in 1.3 sec. @ 250 mph w/out blowing up, or to stay running around a track @175 mph w/out getting wrecked. Getting to these events and back, sometimes in our 8 mpg motorhomes driving couple of hundred miles just to spend a few hours. Or look at the costumizing or restoration industry! All to our cars looking as appealing as possible.
For those that can, “great” God bless your right to do this. But as a whole, in this country it fuels the dependency to the petroleum used to supply the fuel, lubricants, materials and so-forth. If you watch the news and look at how the price per barrel shifts demand or even “speculation of demand” that translates to wheather $2.75 or 3.75/g at the pump.
For you that can take your SUV and fill it up once or twice a wk w/out looking at the effect to your outgo, great. To others it adds $10, 20 or more that come out of other places (sometimes even groceries).
It’s not a pretty picture where we as a nation are headed unless we “ALL” work together.
Aron your comment:As for new fuels: History does not bear that out. Plenty of perfectly good alternative fuel sources have been killed off or ignored due mostly to bad PR. No energy source without a clear profit path for the existing oil companies is likely to survive in today’s market.
Hits the nail on the head!! Even mass transit proyects get sidelined for the same reason.
Aaron: You make arguable points about the rollover tendancies and frame stiffness of the Expedition. However, I still insist that in order to find oneself in a “rollover” situation, generally speaking, one would have to be operating outside of safe driving limits. I don’t think I can live my life contemplating all of the “what if’s” regarding rollovers, single car accidents and so on, or I would simply sit at home and never drive again. In 2004 I was involved in two seperate high speed collisions, which were caused by others. Once in a full sized half ton truck, the other in a full sized truck based SUV, both with stiff ladder frames. I managed to come out completly unscathed. My experience has lead me to believe that I was better off in those vehicles.
Earnest: I also appreciate your comments about this “American” obsession regarding our vehicles. I’m a big fan of the mass transit system and would love to take advantage of it, however, in Dallas, Texas we haven’t developed anything so extensive as to accomodate the masses. Not to mention my occupation as a home builder doesn’t lend itself to utilizing mass transit of any kind. While I appreciate the ability of mass transit to move the masses, I also appreciate the opportunity we have as Americans to choose our method of transportation. Additionally, I find it much more comfortale as a man of 6′ 3″ and 250lbs. to negotiate entry, exit and operation of my larger vehicle. Finally, it might be a stretch to say that my family driving SUV’s (along with all the others) is drastically affecting the price of gas at the pump. We are paying a premium for this gas not entirely due to our usage quantity, but mostly due to our importing it from abroad. Solve that problem and we would most definitly see cheaper gas prices.
Aaron, you are absolutely incorrect when talking about hitting a tree with an SUV versus a car. You need to speak to some safety engineers and get the facts. All vehicles are built to withstand certain impacts. The SIZE of the vehicle has absolutely NOTHING to do with impact protection; that all has to do with the build quality of the product. In Ford products, (and I’m not singling them out, I just know more about them), all SUVs and pickups feature “shotgun” rails in the front panels that provide more protection, especially when hitting a fixed object, i.e., tree, than a car does.
I’m with you, David. If we spent as much time and energy on improving the driving abilities of people in this country, including driver training (and I’m talking about actual driving schools, not 5 minutes with the gym teacher in high school) before being allowed to get a license instead of forcing the automakers to spend billions on safety features that will eventually get them sued by some loser anyway*, we would see crash reductions in the double digits. People forget that driving is a privilege, not a right, and we should require our drivers to be more capable.
* I spoke to a Ford safety engineer, who told me that Ford actually was sued by someone for not inventing the side airbags sooner, because they would have prevented injuries in an impact!
David, you argue like a gentleman, and I appreciate that.
Not long ago I saw a Camry swerve to avoid an accident. She missed what she was trying to avoid but lost contol in the swerve recovery. (It was a beautiful swerve - I bet if she hadn’t tried to get back into her original lane, she would have kept it under control.) The car tried to spin and the right-rear wheel slid into the curb, clearly doing suspension damage. An SUV probably wouldn’t have rolled from the swerve, but smacking the curb poses the “tripping” danger that is more of a problem for SUVs. I imagine an SUV would have stayed shiny-side-up at the speeds she was driving, but at higher speed the rollover risk for an SUV is increased.
One point I can’t argue with: The only way to stay 100% safe is to stay home.
BJ, it’s not size, but stiffness. (Heh heh, I said… never mind.) When a car hits a solid object, it needs to fold up to absorb some of the energy. Once, while backing the Dodge, I bumped into a concrete wall at a crawling pace. The BANG and shudder were like a small airplane fell on the car. The only damage was a slight mark in the chrome bumper. A newer car would have made a much softer hit, though there might have been more visibile damage. It’s a difference between today’s soft bumpers which are made to deform, and the Dodge’s bumper which is simply one big hunk of metal bolted directly to the subframe.
Anyway — You know how it translates to the real world. If I have a choice between hitting a wall in the old Dodge and hitting the wall in a new Civic, I’ll take the smaller, more-fold-upable (how’s that for a word?) Civic.
in reading these post it occured to me that the people that say SUV’s wast gas, aren’t as safe handling are really missing the mark if they think SUV’s are a danger and are wastful the next time your out driving look around at some of the older vehicles there are a lot of them that probally would pass a saftey inspection at a derby. some are missing exhaust pieces, have faulty brakes, missing or damaged lights and are to me a bigger threat than any SUV. SUV’s are expensive and the people that generally drive i have found are more protective because of that so get over hating SUV’s cause you dont like them that’s their right if you really want to do something find someone driving a 15 year old car help them get a new one that will cut down on our consumption and maybe get you in the newspaper
Aaron: It seems clear that this is a very polarizing issue with neither side willing to concede. It does make for lively conversation and for that, I thank you. Your compliment is also appreciated. Always to be polite, but persistent.
BJ: As to persistency, hats off to you. Your comments tend toward the notion that folks should be responsible for their own actions. More of us should share that philosophy.
I AGREE WITH THOSE WHO COMMENT, “THIS IS AMERICA!” “THEY” GOT US OFF OF CIGARETTES, AND MANY OTHER THINGS. THIS GUILT-INDUCING SOCIETY PUMPED BY THE MEDIA, WHO ARE SOMETIMES MORE RIGHTEOUS THAN THEIR OWN PERSONAL LIVES SHOULD ALLOW THEM TO BE, SHOULD JUST COOL IT AND LET US CHOOSE FROM THE MARKETPLACE IN THIS FREE AS WE WILL. GOD (IF I MAY DARE TO SAY SO) BLESS AMERICA AND AMERICAN IDEALS AND TRADITIONS.
go see Inconvenient Truth
There seems to be no end to the ongoing debate about “SUV guilt,” hey?
We’re retired many years now & own a 1989 Volvo 240DL & a 1997 Suburban. We absolutely don’t feel guilty owning the SUV! We used to pull our RV, but now, we take our 5 grandkids on outings, & carry “stuff” between our home & condo (closer to our kids/grandkids).
But there’s also another reason we kept our same vehicles. Prior to hip implant surgery this past spring, many wasted hours were spent searching for a small vehicle w/proper seat/height etc. What a surprise, when my pre-op O.T. said a Subby was perfect & suggested that I use it post-op! Why? The extra space the Suburban front-seat passenger door provides for an ortho patient getting in & out, - plus being an older Subby, it doesn’t have bucket seats! So we bought a sturdy step-stool instead, & saved ourselves those extra monthly car payments. My O.T.’s suggestion worked for me:)
Our liberal friends SAY that they hate SUV’s, - but who do they seek to haul their “stuff” around? A conservative with an SUV!
Anyway, that’s been our experience, …
Little surprise there: according to High and Mighty, a book about the SUV phenomenon by New York Times reporter Keith Bradsher, the auto industry’s own market research concludes that SUV drivers tend to be self-centered and self-absorbed people, insecure and vain, with little interest in their neighbors and communities
thats what car makers thinks about their own SUV clients, way to go express youselfe be free!!
Aaron,,
Im so sick and tired of being made to feel guilty about having a SUV for my family, so I’ve done some investigating to help enlighten you and others.
You wont like my conclusion,…..
CONCLUSION: if you WANT to die or get seriously injured (or you WANT your family members/passengers to die or get seriously injured) then by all means buy a regular passenger car. In fact you are really pathetic, if your reasoning to do so is to save a few bucks on gasoline.
You think I’m off base? …
Well this seems to be the greedy reason behind SUV bashing because the simple facts speak for themselves:
Let me have a moment to explain it.
In any vehicle accident, you are 3-5 TIMES more likely to DIE or Be seriously injured when in a passenger car, relative to a SUV. Its the MASS of the vehicle that dictates this.
see:http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-01/esv/esv19/05-0370-O.pdf
But wait, you’ll die in a SUV from the dreaded “roll-over” accident!, is the next thing you will hear from your typical overtly nosey and pseudo-intellectual SUV critic.
But again,,let’s look at some numbers:
Only 1/2 of 1% of all accidents in the US are roll-overs. Thus in the 99.5% of other accidents, an SUV will protect you and family better than if you were in a passenger vehicle.
But lets look further,,,at the number of US vehicle/accident total deaths …
41,000 in 2004, of these, 11,000 occurred in rollover accidents.
No doubt about it, if you are in a rollover accident, you have a high chance of dying……BUT….
To help you understand that I am not biasing my conclusions, I lifted these numbers from a FRONTLINE (PBS), and clearly anti-SUV website:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/rollover/unsafe/theme.html
WHY do I say anti-SUV site? Because if the author of this article (Mr. Bradsher) had any math skills , he would have asked, what percentage of vehicles in the US are passenger vehicles and what percentage are SUVs.
Go to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_vehicles_in_the_United_States
In fact ~56% of vehicles are passenger cars and ~38% are SUVs. Based on these facts and absolute numbers, of 11,000 rollover accident deaths, 56% should involve passenger vehicles, resulting in 6,160 deaths, (11,000 x .56)
and 38% should involve SUVs, resulting in 4,180 deaths. (11,000 x .38)
Yet Mr. Bradsher knows and tells us that only ~1,900 of ALL rollover deaths involve SUVs!
IN FACT given the proportion of the time a SUV should be involved in a rollover accident (38%) , the people in SUVs are dying at nearly HALF the rate they should be! Go Figure!
So, if you feel you need to save some money on gas, or hug a tree by driving your wee-little hybrid,, and you look at my SUV and smirk as you think about how smart and wise and energy conscious you are compared to me….well,,
….just remember,,,
I’m looking right back at YOU, and thinking how greedy YOU must be,,, to sacrifice your family and friends in the name of saving a couple of bucks on gas money!
thx for your time.
A.
Great song about the dis-attributes of the Great American Gas Guzzler at:
http://www.myspace.com/rbuch
As an American, you should drive whatever you want. It’s part of our culture. However, as a responsible adult consumer, each of us must reframe his decision into the gallons per year he’ll consume. If each American driver consumes 500 gallons/year, the vehicle becomes unimportant. We have as much choice in the quantity of our driving (i.e. how many miles) as we do in the quality of our driving (i.e., big comfy, powerful, safe, fast, off-roading) .
Who’s more wasteful? She who drives her Honda 30K miles per year, or she who drives her Hummer 6k miles per year?
The vehicle is secondary.
Hi-
I wanted to jump into this “I can drive whatever I want, nah, nah” argument at the preschool.
I suggest that all small and mid-size cars be designed to (or retrofitted) match the killing power of the large SUV’s - that completely levels the playing field, and ought to stop “mine is bigger” cold war in vehicles. If your neighborhood SUV driver knew that any Prius he hits would deploy shape charges against the occupants of his/her vehicle, the incentive to “super size” would finally be eliminated.
To the Marine with the SUV-loving family - think about this - all that gas you are buying is enriching the very people that are shooting at your fellow Marines in Iraq. Doesn’t that mean that you are aiding and abetting the enemy? Not very patriotic of you!
Back to George (43),
Georgey, your the reason why debators on the left fall short, they quickly divulge their shortcomings when confronted with cold hard facts, and actually quickly then demonstrate their immature and in fact prejudiced, short sighted notions on how they truly perceive the world. Your remarks are so childish clearly demonstrating that you have a very short logic stream to navigate from. Despite this,, you and your ilk still attempt to think your logic is the only correct one.. Get a grip man, and grow up..quick..especially when it comes to matters of serious debate such as what is being sought here.
I am one who drives a large SUV (and large size car) because I am always concerned about my safety and my family’s, nothing else. Unless every driver here in the US is educated on driving safety and responsible enough to drive safely, I will not let go of driving my large SUV and/or car. For me, paying more at the pump is like paying for extra insurance for my safety. I had discussions and friendly debate with my neighbor who used to drive an economy car (Corolla)about the merits of driving big(more gas) vs driving small(less gas) until he got hit in an intersection by someone running a red light, well I am really sorry for him but he has to go around in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. I drive a H2 and mind you, I hate paying more at the oump but as I said earlier, safety comes with a price.